Could the Star Wars prequel movies have been saved?

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sat Oct 03, 2009 5:18 pm

Fuck, Naboo has an army of its own even if it sucks. It doesn't strike me as unbelievable that the interplanetary republic leaves defense concerns to each planet individually, especially if it has been around long enough that flying from one planet to another was a matter of months or years rather than days.

But this only creates even more problems.

If interplanetary travel only consisted of a few days but planets had militias, why couldn't they just call upon the militias to fight back against the Clone Army? Now the Shays Rebellion crap where there wasn't an institutional response from the other states because no one gave a fuck about Massachusetts made sense... for the Naboo thing. But this wasn't Naboo, this was against a hostile force. They even had emergency meetings and all that crap. So why didn't the planets at least send in militias?

If interplanetary travel (or at least for military mobilization) does take a few months, then how were the Separatists able to mount such a threat to the Republic in the first place? Sure, they could wreck the shit of a couple of unfortunate nearby planets like Naboo and Tatooine, but to the Republic as a whole? Imagine if it was impossible to travel by sea and if Portugal declared war against China. And China was allied with a bunch of countries in between.

Crissa · Post by **Crissa** » Sun Oct 04, 2009 1:11 am

It wasn't an invasion, it was a trade dispute.

If a powerful trade partner (like the United States) wants some conditions, and the UN doesn't, who do you think gets their way?

Weak Federal, Strong local.

-Crissa

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sun Oct 04, 2009 1:16 am

The U.N. isn't like the Republic, though. The Republic can actually do things like declare war and raise armies and all that shit.

Anyway, that just highlights how stupid the Star Wars prequel movies are. Not only does the Trade Federation vs. Naboo plot holes create way too many questions--is the TF wanting taxes from Naboo legitimate or not? That is not brought up in the film. If it is legitimate then why the invasion rather than the Republic telling Naboo to suck it up and pay taxes. If it isn't legitimate then why is the Republic putting up with organizations in it invading planets and killing citizens? Imagine if Texas claimed that Louisiana owed it money and started laying seige to Baton Rouge. This wouldn't just be a 'dispute', it'd be an open act of war against not only Louisiana but the United States.

Even more damning, who the fuck cares about this kind of conflict? This is STAR WARS not Intrapolitical Blockades! How much space action can a Naboo vs. Trade Federation give us? Not a whole fucking lot.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sun Oct 04, 2009 1:19 am

Why does it need to be that complicated anyway?

Why can't it be 'a foreign invader, sensing weakness and turmoil in the Republic, blockades a solar system that is a vital trading port for the Republic. Jedi and other badasses are sent as a show of force to convince the invaders to leave and/or strike before they dig in too far. The invaders refuse to leave and shit happens, made worse by the Senate having their heads up their asses. Palpatine manipulates the situation and outrage into making himself Chancellor.'

There. Simple and anyone can understand the plot.

Neeeek · Post by **Neeeek** » Sun Oct 04, 2009 5:36 am

FrankTrollman wrote:Actually, since they had specifically taken Luke to Tatooine to hide him from Vader, Tatooine is literally the only planet in the entire fucking universe that Vader could not have come from. He could even have come from Dagoba. Or Naboo. Or Coruscant. Fucking anywhere in the entire galaxy. Except Tatooine. Him coming from Tatooine makes a whole lot of scenes in New Hope be completely incomprehensible.

"I wonder where my brother is. Maybe he is in his house? Perhaps I should fucking try that sometime in the next eighteen years?"

-Username17

Sister, actually. I'm fairly sure it was Beru, not Owen that Luke was related to, since they don't share a last name.

However, since Vader thought Padme's children had died in child birth, there was no reason to look for them. That, combined with Obi-wan going to Tatooine (who might have been able to obscure his and Luke's presence there) could explain why it never came up.

On the other hand, I'd have had Anakin leave home at an earlier age (say, 5) so his memories of his family were vague at best and then NOT HAD HIM GO BACK. Though, my favorite plothole is Watto betting the podracer against Anakin's service, while claiming no podracer was worth two slaves. Couldn't they have sold the pod after the race to buy his mother too? (And that's ignoring the fact they could have Jedi mind tricked someone else to get something worth the cost of the parts they needed. It's a dick move, but they were willing to do it to Watto, why not someone else?)

Then there's the whole turning-to-the-dark-side thing. I'd have made Padme's death the cause of it, and have Anakin blame the Jedi and/or Republic for it. Even make it really their fault maybe. Then have him go psycho and start killing everyone. It've have been a hell of a lot more understandable and sympathetic than what actually happened.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sun Oct 04, 2009 6:27 am

That's another plot hole--admittedly in the original trilogy this time. Why didn't Darth Vader realize that Leia was his daughter sooner? How come Darth Vader could realize that Luke was his son but not Leia, considering that he has seen her face-to-face before?

Neeek wrote:On the other hand, I'd have had Anakin leave home at an earlier age (say, 5) so his memories of his family were vague at best and then NOT HAD HIM GO BACK.

What purpose does the story have in doing this?

Ben said he met Luke's father as a great pilot. This isn't just throwaway continuity, this is actually a clever way of Lucas establishing Luke's mad piloting skillz with a minimal amount of dialogue; Luke makes an off-hand remark about Beggar's Canyon, we learn that he's the son of a great pilot, and the final sequence of the movie is more believable.

Even if you gave the finger to continuity, what purpose would it have finding Anakin at this young of an age? For one it deflates the badassedness of Vader; nothing deflates a villain's cool as seeing them as surly, mop-topped kids. For two, there isn't much narrative purpose out of it. Anakin can't really do anything as a kid, so there needs to be a timeskip. Not that I'm against the idea of the timeskip, but if you don't want to milk any drama out of him leaving home (since you didn't want the movie to dwell on it) then why do you want to spend precious movie time on this?

Neeek wrote: Then there's the whole turning-to-the-dark-side thing. I'd have made Padme's death the cause of it, and have Anakin blame the Jedi and/or Republic for it. Even make it really their fault maybe. Then have him go psycho and start killing everyone. It've have been a hell of a lot more understandable and sympathetic than what actually happened.

They tried that exact outline you talked about with Anakin's mom in the second movie, which was another reason why it was so shit. And it didn't fucking work at all. I didn't have sympathy for someone who lost their mother to slavers--I saw a little shit taking out his rage on innocent women and children.

So how would doing the exact same thing but with someone else chopped up and stuffed into the fridge be any better?

Crissa · Post by **Crissa** » Sun Oct 04, 2009 8:00 am

Prior to election of Palpatine, the Republic did not have the right to raise an army. It could allow its participants to do war. Hence the clones - they didn't have an army, or a means to really create one loyal to the federal over vassal states.

I'm most annoyed that finding Anakin as a kid (at least ten years younger than Luke) means he's also 'too old to train'. 'As was I' said Ben. That just seemed useless complexity to the movie.

-Crissa

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sun Oct 04, 2009 8:47 am

Crissa wrote:Prior to election of Palpatine, the Republic did not have the right to raise an army.

Gee, why doesn't the Republic--a governing body that's been around for untold years--have the right to raise an army?

Is it because George Lucas wanted to force his stupid 'these hidden clones will save the Republic because 0.1 is bigger than zero!' plot point or was there an actual logical/narrative satisfying reason?

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Sun Oct 04, 2009 9:18 am

Strongly disagree. Anakin needs his memories of slavery and he needs to be "too old." These relate directly to the big mistake the Jedi make and his eventual fall.

The Jedi order, being hidebound and legalistic, treats Anakin like SHIT because he doesn't conform to their expectations. Children are supposed to be trained from a young age, presumably so that they can be indoctrinated, or as the Masters probably would think of it, so that their power doesn't outstrip their wisdom to use it. This means that Anakin's "training" is probably as much about observing and testing him as helping him learn. That's not the worst thing in the world, but it does mean that when Anakin accuses Obi-Wan of "holding him back," he's probably right.

Similarly, Jedi aren't supposed to have contact with their families, but a non-douchebag council could have sent someone to buy his mother free and buy her a nice pad on Coruscant just for Anakin's peace of mind. It's totally believable that her eventual death would turn him against the Jedi Order. His childhood of slavery means that he comes pre-equipped with a resentment of authority, or to put a positive spin on it, he can tell when he's being used.

The Jedi council didn't trust him and didn't want to train him, but felt that he was too powerful to ignore. So they took him in and made him fight their battles for them. What they didn't realize was that it's an all-or-nothing decision. Either wholeheartedly accept him, or have nothing to do with him. Deliberately teaching him the powers of the force while going out of your way to be a dick about it = fail.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Oct 04, 2009 9:19 am

Lago wrote:Gee, why doesn't the Republic--a governing body that's been around for untold years--have the right to raise an army?

Lots of governing bodies don't have that right. The state of Wyoming can't raise an army. The European Union can't raise an army.

Hell, the first draft of the US didn't let the federal government raise an army.

-Username17

Kobajagrande · Post by **Kobajagrande** » Sun Oct 04, 2009 9:21 am

Ok, wait.

Does anyone actually watch SW movies and, while watching the movie for the very first time, think about whether the Republic has a Common Foreign and Security Policy?

If you actually do, then you are an idiot, and a kind of idiot which should be forbidden going to the cinemas because they have a tendency toward making stupid comments about stuff no one cares about during the projection.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sun Oct 04, 2009 9:36 am

FrankTrollman wrote:Lots of governing bodies don't have that right. The state of Wyoming can't raise an army. The European Union can't raise an army.

Hell, the first draft of the US didn't let the federal government raise an army.

-Username17

So why should we give a fuck at all about the fate of the Republic if it collapses, then? If the Republic is unable to provide for common defense then why should we give a shit about what happens to it? The fate of the planets would have ultimately been the same if the Republic had never existed.

Kobra wrote: Does anyone actually watch SW movies and, while watching the movie for the very first time, think about whether the Republic has a Common Foreign and Security Policy?

If you actually do, then you are an idiot, and a kind of idiot which should be forbidden going to the cinemas because they have a tendency toward making stupid comments about stuff no one cares about during the projection.

Kindly shut your lazy-ass mouth.

That thing you're telling us to shut our brain off for IS THE LINCHPIN OF THE MOTHERFUCKING PLOT OF THE SECOND MOVIE.

I can understand you telling us that the movie shouldn't have had us think about that shit in the first place, but the non-existence of the Republic's military IS THE WHOLE REASON WHY PALPATINE GOT AWARDED DICTATOR POWERS. Yes, we do need to know these things BECAUSE IT IS THE REASON THE REPUBLIC FELL WHICH IS THE WHOLE FUCKING POINT OF THE PREQUEL TRILOGY.

This mentality is why we get brainless potboiler bullshit like Attack of the Clones. With all due respect, get bent.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Oct 04, 2009 9:47 am

Lago wrote:So why should we give a fuck at all about the fate of the Republic if it collapses, then? If the Republic is unable to provide for common defense then why should we give a shit about what happens to it?

Because they build roads or provide healthcare?

Look, if it's an EU-based model, which would actually make sense for an interplanetary empire, people can pull out and start shooting at any time. But it collapsing would be a bad thing.

Not every level of government provides security. How many soldiers does your local school board have? Would South Central High taking up arms, taking all the pies, and seceding be a bad thing?

-Username17

Kobajagrande · Post by **Kobajagrande** » Sun Oct 04, 2009 9:49 am

Lago PARANOIA wrote: Kindly shut your lazy-ass mouth.

Are you ok? You sound retarded.

But that's to be expected, seeing how all of your suggestions would do fuck to make any of the movies better. A movie doesn't get better if there is one or more sith, or if the attacker is a separatist or a foreign entity (never mind that foreign invader thing completely misses the point the three movies tried to make).

If you want to complain, you could talk about how the first two movies tried to cover too many themes, and did not have enough time to properly address any of them. But no, you just go around utterly unimportant stuff for the quality of the movie.

Do the world a favor, and shut up.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Oct 04, 2009 9:55 am

But that's to be expected, seeing how all of your suggestions would do fuck to make any of the movies better. A movie doesn't get better if there is one or more sith, or if the attacker is a separatist or a foreign entity (never mind that foreign invader thing completely misses the point the three movies tried to make).

Actually, they do.

If the enemies do not seem threatening, the entire movie becomes pointless.

-Username17

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sun Oct 04, 2009 10:00 am

Frank wrote: Not every level of government provides security. How many soldiers does your local school board have? Would South Central High taking up arms, taking all the pies, and seceding be a bad thing?

I don't expect my local government or even my state to provide a defense, but I do expect a competent defense at some level.

Bullshit planets like Naboo don't have a competent planetary security. Why not? Is it because their resources suck? Okay, that's reasonable, but how come they (and a bunch of other loser planets) don't have an alliance or pact with someone who can kick ass for them? The Trade Federation did pretty much what they wanted the entire movie; there's absolutely no reason why they couldn't have just pumped out more droids and tried again even though Palpatine didn't need them anymore. No one wised up after this?

Kobajagrande · Post by **Kobajagrande** » Sun Oct 04, 2009 10:01 am

Seeing how the movies were supposed to show how republic is becoming inefficient, how its breaking down, and turning into an empire in the name of stability, all the while that process being driven by the sith, separatists were sufficient.

The main problem of the movies was that they didn't cover their motifs well enough, not that the bad guys were somehow not threatening enough.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sun Oct 04, 2009 10:10 am

Kobajagrande wrote: Are you ok? You sound retarded.

But that's to be expected, seeing how all of your suggestions would do fuck to make any of the movies better. A movie doesn't get better if there is one or more sith, or if the attacker is a separatist or a foreign entity (never mind that foreign invader thing completely misses the point the three movies tried to make).

Are you ok? You sound retarded.

You need credible opposition for your action movie to be any good. You need understandable motivations for your villains to be credible. It does make a difference whether the attacker is a separatist or a foreign invader because they will have difference threat levels and different motivations.

This is basic Storytelling 101 here. Hell, this isn't even elementary stuff; it's just stuff even a small child knows when writing a story like 'stories should have an ending' and 'characters must do things in accordance with their motivation'.

How could someone be on a D&D board, a game about creating stories, and not know this incredibly basic shit?

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sun Oct 04, 2009 10:11 am

Kobajagrande wrote: The main problem of the movies was that they didn't cover their motifs well enough, not that the bad guys were somehow not threatening enough.

....

It's an ACTION MOVIE you smug fuck! The villains NEED to be threatening!

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Oct 04, 2009 10:13 am

The main problem of the movies was that they didn't cover their motifs well enough, not that the bad guys were somehow not threatening enough.

Those are the same thing.

The fact that the enemies never did anything bad or even particularly meaningful on screen is why the motifs were poorly covered. If you had actually seen droids putting people into work camps or something, then the failures of the Republic would have seemed like an actual failure rather than just some random shit that happened.

-Username17

Crissa · Post by **Crissa** » Sun Oct 04, 2009 10:34 am

Hidden clones didn't save the Republic.

They were a pretend war between constructs puppeteered by the same man (Palpatine) in order for him to gain power.

I don't think the movies showed that well enough.

-Crissa

Kobajagrande · Post by **Kobajagrande** » Sun Oct 04, 2009 11:10 am

FrankTrollman wrote: The fact that the enemies never did anything bad or even particularly meaningful on screen is why the motifs were poorly covered. If you had actually seen droids putting people into work camps or something, then the failures of the Republic would have seemed like an actual failure rather than just some random shit that happened.

Only that wasn't the thing Lucas tried to make the movies about.

Crissa is on the right track; The Separatists weren't evil, the Sith were. The Separatists were the bunch of guys who said "This Republic thing is shit, we need to take things into our own hands".

And one of the failures was using the trade federation, the same guys who tried to abuse Republic being shit, as a basis for the Separatists.

The other failure was that motives of the Sith were not explained. The only thing the viewers knew was that they wanted to have some sort of revenge against the Jedi. Which was left as one damn sentence in the first movie. The movies would be much better if their motives were established at start, so the viewers could watch as everything spiraled toward destruction right into Palpatine's hands.

What I guess Lucas tried to do was first make viewers think the Sith were trying to destroy the Republic with military might, only to have Palpatine reveal himself as the Sith in some grand way in the end. Only it failed rather pathetically at that.

Add to that some poorly done scenes; I mean, 4 years after the damn movie, the people are still arguing whether Palpy let Mace win, or did he actually get beaten to a corner. The movies are full of such unexplained things which make them bad. A montage of droids committing genocide would do nothing to fix that.

Kobajagrande · Post by **Kobajagrande** » Sun Oct 04, 2009 11:22 am

Lago PARANOIA wrote: It's an ACTION MOVIE you smug fuck! The villains NEED to be threatening!

The Sith were the villains, retard. Not the separatists. The separatists were there to show that the Republic was falling apart. You think that "invasion by some aliens from outer space" shows breaking apart of a republic as good as "civil war"? Stop trying to look stupid, please.

Never mind the fact that "some aliens from outer space" would mess up the point of "republic being the entire SW world and everything that matters".

No, seriously; just stop.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Oct 04, 2009 11:32 am

The movies are full of such unexplained things which make them bad. A montage of droids committing genocide would do nothing to fix that.

Completely disagree. First off, it's an action movie. We're supposed o empathize with Amadala and her people, but the only thing that is actually on camera to make me want her to succeed is the fact that she is pretty. At no time does anything ever come on screen to show her people being in worse hands under the droid army than under her own monarchy. And that makes all of the fights between droids and main characters meaningless, because like the Republic council itself you are given no real reason to care about the outcome.

So right there it fails at basic storytelling 101 in that the entire adventure portion of the movie (which let's face it: is most of the movie) is a giant "who cares?"

Secondly, because the primary Naboo conflict is one that the audience (and apparently the senate) do not give a damn about, it leaves the entire segue into the second movie as peculiar in the extreme. No one cares, nothing bad happened, and the Jedi council solved everything behind the scenes anyway. What do we need a new Chancellor for?

If something actually bad had happened on screen and been openly talked about while the senate did nothing, it would provide an understandable excuse for an increase in Federal powers. As is, some characters walked from set piece to set piece and the only injustice that gets any screen time at all is on fucking Tatooine. Why is there suddenly support anywhere for an army of the republic?

-Username17

Neeeek · Post by **Neeeek** » Sun Oct 04, 2009 11:58 am

Kobajagrande wrote: A montage of droids committing genocide would do nothing to fix that.

You don't need a montage. You need an establishing image. Darth Maul doesn't do a single thing that is clearly wrong in the entire time he is on-screen. He's the bad guy because he's the one who looks like a demon. Contrast to Vader, who, in the first scene you see him, picks someone up and chokes him to death. Maul kills exactly one person, and that person attacked him the first time they met and was trying to kill Maul when he died. Not the most convincing villain.